An Exciting Vision for the Future

by Ann O’Brien Ahmad

ASAK. Those who were unable to attend the community meeting on March 2 missed an historic event. The social hall was packed with men and women representing both sides of the expansion issue. The architects presented their conceptual plan (amazingly they did not charge anything to IAGD for this plan), but most of the meeting was dedicated to gathering feedback from the community. IAGD President Fasahat Hamzavi patiently allowed everyone to speak, answering all questions calmly and respectfully.

Much of the community stayed for the entire meeting, which lasted five hours, showing how important the issue is and how much the community wants to have their voices heard on the subject. In a short period of time, the new Board has done an excellent job of opening lines of communication with the community and of tackling the expansion issue with exciting new ideas.

In my recent post, “What a Difference a Year Makes,” I indicated the issues I felt were most important regarding the expansion. How well did the conceptual plan address those issues? As a community, I don’t think we could have asked for a better plan. It is a beautiful, full-featured plan that meets the needs of the community at a reasonable cost. It looks far more feature rich and cost effective than Plan E.

C:UsersMiteshDesktopFloor Plan - 01-28-2013 Model (1)

Click here for a PDF of the Floor Plan for the Conceptual Plan.

Here is how the conceptual plan addresses the issues I identified as most important:

  • The prayer hall should not be converted to a social hall. The conceptual plan expands the prayer hall, while maintaining the current prayer hall as part of that area. Thus, the current prayer area will not be repurposed to another use. This alone makes the conceptual plan far superior to Plan E.
  • Our children and grandchildren should be the main focus of the expansion. The conceptual plan includes a new first floor school, which will have security features that are essential for a school. Most of the classrooms will have windows for natural light. I was impressed with the architect’s statistics showing that students in classrooms with natural light score 25% higher on standardized tests. That is so much better than putting classrooms in the basement and social hall with almost no natural light. The new classrooms can also be utilized by the hifz, Saturday, and Sunday schools.
  • The cost of the expansion matters. It is impressive that if the low end of the square footage for the conceptual plan is built (35,000 square feet), the cost will be approximately $4.9 million, $2.0 million less than the cap for Plan E. What is even more impressive is that the features of the conceptual plan seem so much nicer than Plan E. The atrium sounds like a wonderful gathering place for the community on a day-to-day basis, as well as a focal point for the school and social hall. The prayer area has more than adequate space for men and women. It also features a completely separate entrance for the women with a woman’s area. The social hall sounds nicer than most commercial halls in the metro Detroit area, and should be a great revenue-generating hall for IAGD.

In a very short period of time, the new Board of Directors’ Executive Committee has done an outstanding job of bringing the community an expansion plan that meets everyone’s needs at a reasonable cost. I, for one, fully support going forward with the conceptual plan.

But can the Board of Trustees set aside their mantra of unanimous decisions and followed processes to truly give the conceptual plan a chance? At the community meeting, everyone, including the Board of Trustees, indicated that keeping unity in the community was very important. If that is true, then the Board of Trustees should let go of Plan E in favor of the conceptual plan, which truly addresses the needs of the entire community. Will the Board of Trustees prove their wisdom by working with the Board of Directors to move forward with developing the conceptual plan? Or will they continue to press for Plan E, knowing that a large portion of the community is opposed to it? Time will tell, but the community is watching.

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52 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Choudry on March 7, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    ASAK Sr Ann,
    A very nice analysis of a wonderful plan . It addresses all three issues ( FIQH , EDUCATION , COST ) . It shows the effort that the new board wants to take community on board and ready to put effort to address their needs.The president stayed calmly till the last question was asked , even a gentleman was allowed to deliver speeches ,time and again.
    They don’t look like the FATHRE & SON company where sons and nephews were just towing the ideas presented by the FOUNDING FATHERS. And were not ready to absorb any idea or objection from the community whether it was religious or economical .
    Now I have heard that the new BOD can not proceed without the concent of of BOT. The reaction from BOT will show that how honestly they believe in democratic values and unity of community . There were no questions that were not answered ,from anybody during the meeting . If anybody could recall the meeting that was done by the previous board they can well judge that what community wants .The calm and respectful environment depicts that the community doesn’t have any problem with the conceptual plan and if somebody has any issue, they are ready to address it.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on March 14, 2013 at 4:13 pm

      Br. Choudry
      Your comments clearly shows that you have some personal issues with members of BOT. What’s is wrong if couple of families are working for community and they are giving time and money. You better pray for them that if they are working with Ikhlas, Allah accept their efforts. Are not they better than those who don’t come to Masjid and their kids have no interest with community and religious work?

      Being a vocal of school, you should raise the same amount of money and ask your children to give school to community. May Allah give all of us to do some constructive work and give us big rewards.

      Reply

  2. Posted by Mansoor on March 7, 2013 at 8:19 pm

    ASAK. It is an excellent plan. When there is a will, there is a way. It’s amazing that this Executive committee could come up with this elegant plan in six weeks without any cost to IAGD. It took them almost four years to develop Plan E and who knows how much money they have spent so far. This plan does addresses all three issues, FIQH, SCHOOL and COST.

    Reply

  3. Posted by Yousuf S on March 8, 2013 at 11:04 am

    Thanks for a succint wrap up of the plan and the events of the meeting. In addition to the cost, and fiqh issues, having beautiful classrooms upstairs with natural lighting, as well as a beautiful atrium are the highlights of the new plan. I don’t see any reason to continue opposing this, when we are getting all we need, and more, for much less than plan E!!
    None of the criticisms against the conceptual plan had any solid grounds, and many time it was “arguing for argument’s sake”.
    It is time for all of us to come together, and to leave our egos at the door of the masjid. We need to remain united and stand strong together. Ameen!

    Reply

    • Noble and encouraging thoughts!!!

      No matter which plan, we are still heading for self-immolation. But no worries, why should we be different from our ancestors who lost empires and destroyed each other as they tired to save “Allah’s Deen”. Still a lose-lose proposition. I sincerely pray that your prayers are answered.

      Read this blog for the first time. The anger and the vitriol………….Allah knows what’s in the breasts of men(humans).

      Must admit that sister Ann’s comments and voice of reason and balance seems very hopeful. I pray that she can continue to be so in-spite of………

      Some journey to their deaths and some journey to their lives, yet neither one of them knows whose is the better journey ——-with apologies to Socrates !!!

      Reply

  4. Posted by Nisar on March 10, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    Inshallah we hope and pray we all come to an mutual agreement and start the noble work. According to my knowledge it is not possible in 5 million dollars. I spoke to the builder who is a good friend of mine the price is bound to increase because of the time lapse. Wanted to thank sister Ann for doing an amazing job with her timely reminders to the community. Also I want to show my special gratitude to brother Aleem knan for introducing us the civil engineers and the architects. Many people are aware of Aleem khan builders work , helped Tauheed center mosque and also is helping the Amda mosque construction.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on March 10, 2013 at 4:24 pm

      I assume that any cost over-run will be covered by the BOD from their own pocket! There is only one way to ensure it – make it legally binding. I suggest the community should take out a lien on the president’s house to make sure the project stays under 5 million. If the BOT plan goes though then the the same rule should be applied to the BOT. In the real world a there is always a difference between the budget and actual. Accountants even have a name for it – it is called “variance”. In this battle of bloated egos the community is being led down the road to nowhere by both sides.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tabassum on March 11, 2013 at 12:30 pm

        ASAK. Lets not kid ourselves. The conceptual plan that was presented will have a cost depending upon the final detail plan,timing and features selected. I dont think anybody can say the initial estimate will be the final cost of the project as you have rightly pointed out. I have never seen a project where this has been true. So legally binding makes no sense at this point.

        The office bearers have done a good job in presenting to the community alternatives. The next steps should be of developing a detail plan and getting the costs for it. forward.

        Dont know how long this will take but every day lost is day we will never get back. So we need to put time frame as to when a decision should/must be made and move on.

      • Posted by Anonymous on March 14, 2013 at 4:18 pm

        If this applies to both BOT and BOD, i think that is quite fair. Instead of wasting community time, BOT and BOD should give us some guarantee.

  5. Posted by Mansoor Ahmad on March 10, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    ASAK.
    Br. Nisar, it all depends on the size, the low end of the square footage of the plan can be built for five million dollars. In the majority of the community’s opinion, thirty five thousand (35,000) square feet is more than enough. The beauty of this plan is that it takes care of the other issues also, FIQH and SCHOOL. After the community meeting, any body I talk to like the Plan, especially the lay out of the school.

    You are right, the price will increase because of the timeline, but that goes for any plan. In my opinion, this plan has less chances of that because it can be done faster. Sooner we start and finish better it is. It all depends on BOD and BOT. They have heard the community and now the ball is in their court. They should have held this meeting three or four years ago like it was suggested over and over again. From bottom up is the right procedure, not from top down.

    Community is watching and praying at the same time. BOD and BOT should keep this in mind that it is the community’s project and their funds are being used for it.
    May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

    Reply

  6. Posted by Choudry on March 10, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    There was a great suggestion in last meeting ” ask BOT and BOD to meet in front of the community”. They have already met behind the scenes and now the BOT is portraying as they have never met .Come and meet in front of the community and show the logical reasoning ( if they have any )that why each of them is rejecting or supporting a plan.
    Nobody is asking to tell the old stories of blue house or the money spent please share some homework that is done to support your plan.Make it an open forum to decide there and then . If the GB is convinced that the conceptual plan is good they should move forward with it.If GB supports the other one they should start working on it, but what if the GB think there is no need of expansion !
    We should think about other stuff too…

    Reply

    • Dear Brother Choudry. May Allah’s Blessings and Peace be upon you and your family. I liked your last point: “No Need”. Honest, respectful dialogue will help to heal everyone. At the end of the day we still need to stand and pray by each other’s grave without any lingering rancor in our hearts. We need to be there for each other much more than we need a lot more bricks and mortar. Thank you.

      Reply

  7. Dear Sister Ann. May Allah Reward you for providing a forum for the community to ventilate and express their opinions(albeit, rather forcefully sometimes). I would like to make a few observations on your wonderful piece “An Exciting Vision for the Future”

    1). FIQH/PRAYER HALL/SOCIAL HALL:

    Let me start by thanking you for all you have done for this community (mostly behind the scenes and without gratitude). Somehow, throughout Muslim history, it has been the curse and misfortune of the Ummah to always fall into bickering over the mundane and the insignificant and loose sight of the strategic big picture till it was a case of “too little, too late”.

    We have fatwas (opinions really) from all over the world, including USA, which all of a sudden have become THE WORD. In the past there have been fatwas against educating women, learning English, wearing western garb etc etc. Apologies if I offend anyone (not my intent), just making a point that The Good Lord and The Prophet (PBUH) wanted us to use our brains and stay faithful to the original religion (Quran) more so than what we are doing. Did not the Prophet (PBUH) once say ” that if you insist on being unintelligent, you are not of my Ummah.”
    The above issue, with deference to all, is a red herring. The Prophet (PBUH) also said ” the whole world/earth has been created as a mosque for me and my Ummah and you can pray anywhere” Well in that case the reverse………

    ‘It is related from ‘A’isha, that Barira came to her to ask her help …………………………Then the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) stood on the minbar and said, “Why is it that some people make conditions which are not in The Book of Allah? Any condition which is not in The Book of Allah is invalid even if it is stipulated a hundred times.”‘
    Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, Mosques, XXXVII, 444.

    2). NO SCHOOL

    In my humble opinion there should be no K-12 school. Sunday? yes. But spare us the tortures of insisting to create second class Muslim Americans. Long after we are dead and gone our children and their grandchildren will still have to live in this increasingly global environment. I have yet to see (I am sure there are a couple) somewhere an Islamic, financialy solvent K-12 whose graduates could compete with those coming out of a good public school and also had good muslim values instilled in them at home. All the wishful thinking about the school is a poor substitute for parental guidance and example.
    At a bare minimum, it should be a separate effort, with separate fund raising and people can speak to the specific issue.

    3). COST

    Very valid point!!!!!! Need to have hard numbers. We all know that by definition CONCEPT means just that. If we are all honest with ourselves then we need a “horizontal comparative analysis” (read apples to apples comparison), even if we put a hard stop @ 5 million dollars, and also consider the cost of inaction and time lost. Certainly members of all points of view can agree on that. (I hope).

    Many thanks for your patience and graciousness.

    Reply

  8. Posted by Anonymous X on March 11, 2013 at 10:05 am

    salams

    Recent remarks by several individuals have brought me to wonder if IAGD is an Islamic community at all. There seems to be a very secular (or confused) community within the walls of IAGD that is in direct conflict with ‘religious’ Muslims, who even go so far as to belittle those who pray daily at the masjid. Maybe it’s time we ask ourselves if this is a social club or a masjid. The IAGD constitution says: “The Islamic Association of Greater Detroit UNEQUIVOCALLY AFFIRMS QURAN AND SUNNAH AS ITS ETERNAL AND ULTIMATE CONSTITUTION.” Really? Do we? How far have we strayed if we put an emailed generic ‘opinion’ that cites neither Quran nor Sunnah over the fatwas from revered Islamic scholars/institutions that cite Quran and Sunnah? Doing so not only breaks the Constitution our leaders claim they stand on and makes IAGD a secular institution.

    Let me make a few responses to the post by Abduallah….
    Regarding the fiqh issue, ‘Abdullah’ says the Ummah falls “into bickering over the MUNDANE and the INSIGNIFICANTand loose sight of THE STRATEGIC BIG PICTURE till it was a case of ‘too little, too late’.” I beg to differ. The debate we are involved in is not ‘mundane’ or ‘insignificant’. Fiqh is not to be ignored. At first, very few people even realized a fiqh issue was involved. That in and of itself is sad – we pride ourselves on being an educated community and we were blindsided by our own ignorance. Last year people were opposed to the existing plans based on cost and other issues, but very few were siting fiqh. Those who were concerned about fiqh issues were brushed aside as being ‘mullahs’ and ‘overly conservative’, rather than embraced for possibly saving the entire community from a grievous error. Either we seriously accept the Quran and Sunnah as guidance, or we defy it with our own arrogance and insist to move forward just because the plans are in place, right or wrong.

    And, ‘Abdullah’….just a suggestion… while you are searching online for random hadiths that prove your point, you might take a while to find info on the sanctity of a masjid (and learn the difference between a masjid and a musullah).
    Regarding the School, people without small children may not be interested in supporting a school, but if we want IAGD to continue into the future we need something to bring young families into the community. We certainly CANNOT do that with our scant, barely-existant programs! Studies have shown that GOOD Islamic schools bring young families to an area and keep them tied to the community. We have nothing else to do that currently. So, if we do build an expansion, who do we expect will populate it ten or twenty years in the future? How can we build a huge building without supplying a reason for people to come more often than just on Eids?

    But COST??? The conceptual plan was to generate discussion. This was a discussion this community SHOULD HAVE HAD before plan E ever went to committee and definitely before it cost us tens of thousands of dollars with an architect! ‘Abdullah’…maybe you’re new in town, but the IAGD leadership has INSISTED for years that there is no way to know how much a plan will cost UNTIL it’s in the final stages, given to a contractor. However, the conceptual plan (and two others that preceded it) had been priced out, not by an architect, but by a contractor/building team. The conceptual plan has real estimates; the administration’s plan E is only now, after several years of ‘planning’ coming to a cost. Plan E was developed with an attitude of ‘price is no object’ and we are all just expected to suffer and pay whatever it costs to have leadership with such poor judgement. The Board of Directors put a limit on the cost, the community petitioned the Board for reconsideration, but given the tone of the Trustees recent brochures and emails, it’s pretty clear they plan to move forward regardless of cost, public opinion, or fiqh.

    Maybe we need to change the constitution. Maybe we need to say the Trustees are our eternal source of guidance (most of them have been there for eons anyway) rather than incorrectly saying we follow Quran and Sunnah. Let’s be honest.

    Reply

    • ASA Brother X,

      I am sorry if I offended. I did not mean any disrespect. The point I was making is (may be I am confused because I am not very well read) that from my heart I do feel that nothing transcends the Quran and no fatwa transcends the authentic teachings or guidance of the Prophet (PBUH). Am I wrong??? I think the quotation from Sahih al-Bukhari is authentic, you can check. I did give the complete reference. Maybe it is misquoted on the website which gives the complete english translation (or professes to do so) of the Imam’s writing. If correct, then even during his lifetime The Prophet (PBUH) told us not to make up things that are not sanctioned by the Quran. Maybe I am misinterpreting the Hadith. Competing fatwas! Then what do you do?
      Sanctity of mosques? Hagia Sophia? Cordoba? Many many examples all over the world where the muslim communities are extinct because they could not see the forest for the trees. Again apologies, if I offend (not my intent). All we need to do is to read the history of the muslims and then you can judge for yourselves what a wonderful and united Ummah this has been, from right after the Prophet’s (PBUH). Hopefully, we can all stand together and look beyond our current angers and anxieties.

      I have nothing against the school per se. However, I just feel that honest people should be allowed to disagree on this point. My personal feeling, by no means universal, is that we do it more for ourselves than in the best interest of our children. We should teach them, but not isolate them in bubbles. They will have to deal with the secular world at some point!!! Let them (and parents) read the Quran in English (or another language they are well versed in) so that they can understand and follow its teaching before trying to memorize without understanding. The Quran itself has something to say about that (reading without understanding or following). Finally you can’t deny that there have been fatwas against studying English and educating women and letting women have careers etc??? If something HAS TO BE CUT, it should be the school.

      Cost: That is a whole new Pandora’s box. X Y Z plans. Everyone is cherry picking it seems. You can safely add a healthy percentage to any quote, so we should get to a comfortable range and move on with it. I have an open mind. Each of us should support in the financial endeavor to the best of our God given abilities and means.

      I love the IAGD and have great respect for all our leaders (past and present), who serve us selflessly in these thankless positions.

      ALLAHS BLESSING ON YOU AND OUR COMMUNITY. MAY HE HELP US ALL TO COME OUT OF THE DARK AND INTO THE LIGHT.

      Reply

      • Posted by ML on March 11, 2013 at 10:51 pm

        ASAK The last post mentioned Cordoba. that’s a great example of a community not planning for the future. The muslims built a huge mosque, but they isolated themselves. They never built up a community or did anything to encourage Spainish peoples to become Muslim. Their rule ended and Europe’s backlash was the inquisition.

        Hagia Sophia is another example that IAGD needs to learn from. It was a church, then became a mosque, but when Turkey went secular it became a museum.

    • Dear Brother X, ASA

      Can u guide me to anything in the Quran that says that you cannot expand a mosque, even if it means giving up the lesser praying structure. God judges on intent. Do you think there might be an outside chance that we are confusing the intent to create a greater building to the Glory of Allah with the conversion of a lesser structure to other uses. I wonder if there examples of people before us having done this, especially in the expansions and redesigning of the Great Mosques of the World! Small areas left out of the larger plan and put to other use!! Promise no more posts tonite.

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous X on March 11, 2013 at 11:52 pm

        Salams. We all need to stop and think once in a while. We face a masjid in every prayer that shrunk but the space that’s not in the building anymore is still treated with the reverence of a masjid. The ka’aba is not the size it once was and the area called the hatim is treated as if it was still inside the ka’aba itself. Once a masjid, always a masjid. Expanding a mosque is not the problem, but there are rules (based on the Quran and the guidance of the Prophet (SAW) on everything (aka, shariah/laws) that scholard derive from those sources. You said you “do not feel that nothing transcends the Quran and no fatwa tanscends the authentic teachings or guidance of the Prophet (SAW)” Let’s be clear, fatwas are not mere statements from some imam somewhere. Legitimate scholars sit with details of a situation and use the guidance of the Quran and Sunnah (‘guidance of the Prophet’). It’s not just some fellow making a statement off the top of his hat. And, if you saw the fatwas that Sr. Ann had posted on this blog several months ago, they read like legal cases, taking the details of a situation/question into consideration. That’s why those of us who are not scholars might read Sahih Bukhari and think we see contradictions in the statements there. In fact, much like secular legal cases may look similar to the untrained person, but when the judges see the details of each, they may rule differently depending on the specific circumstances.

        As for the school, you claim you’ve got no interest and show some concern that parochial education is isolating and then you suggest that parents should teach their own kids using translations of Quran. I agree many people in many countries ‘read’ Quran and don’t know what they read, but I also think it’s important to always keep in mind that translations of translations eventually lead people down the wrong path. Think of Christianity – how far from the teachings of Isa (AS) are they now? Is that what we want to happen to Islam? There is a reason that we teach hifz – it’s the protection of the sacred words of the Quran.
        It’s not for everyone, but I am thankful that there are those who spend their lives being human recordings of our holy book. Maybe Arabic’s not for some, but we need to have tafseer and other classes to learn more about the faith we all claim as our own. We are all supposed to seek knowledge and we need to do that from our imams and scholars. IAGD brings great speakers and authors in for us to learn from, but too many people treat that as just dinner entertainment. They say ‘seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave’ but how many of us do that? It’s so much easier to build buildings than develop programs. So much easier to cut a check and wash away our guilt than to work hard (on our selves), humbly admit we don’t know everything, and increase our knowledge.

        Whats the point in having a big mosque filled with people who don’t really know how to practice Islam or feel it deeply in their hearts and live it with every breath? Maybe we would be better off to educate ourselves in a little mosque than to have a hollow and meaningless palace.

      • Posted by Choudry on March 12, 2013 at 4:21 pm

        Before mentioning Haiga Sophia one should read about Mustufa Kamal Ata Turk. I feel sorry for those who idealise modern Turkey and forget the past behind it .Do you , by any chance ,know anything about Ata tUrk’s approach towards religion? Do you know why so many boys were named after Adnan Mandrez and why he was hanged ?If you want to follow it then you should call IAGD a club and not a masjid. Don’t forget the dialogue between H’atim Tai’s son and Prophet Mohammed ( SAW). May Allah forgive me for the mistakes but the central idea was that he asked from Prphet Mohammed (SAW) why do you say that we have made our priests our Gods? The Prophet replied that don’t you stop doing what they stop you from and do what they ask for .( means instead of following the teachings that are given in the book by Allah ,they started following the priests and uptil today they are doing so . Their churches are arranging Gay marriages whereas the gospel forbids it .)

  9. Posted by Mansoor Ahmad on March 11, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    ASAK.
    Br. X, looks like you are very well informed and concerned member of IAGD. May Allah bless you and your family. People like you are the back bone of IAGD ( MASJID ) and give people like me the encouragement to do what ever we can to do the right thing. IAGD is a religious organization and should be kept that way. I agree with you on every word you wrote. Please, keep up the good work.

    May Allah guide us all, Ameen.

    Reply

  10. Salams Brothers X and Choudry,

    Brother X, why cant we clearly read for ourselves these sources that the scholars/imams are basing these decisions on. In my very limited knowledge, I have never read about the Prophet (PBUH) being unreasonable or unpragmatic. He was always forgiving, kind and moderate, even with sinners. I will be grateful if you direct me to some hadith that deals directly with the issue we are struggling with. Interpretations in my humble opinion become dangerously close to gospels according to ……etc etc or papal bulls. Please let me know if I am becoming tiresome with my questions.

    Brother Choudry, thank you for your stimulating comments. I am not very well read about Ata Turk except that he saved the remnants of the Ottoman Empire from total annhilation and left his people the better for it. Only Allah is the best of judges. Please mention a few brief words about Mandrez. Allah says in the Quran that monasticism was forbidden so ………..is your last point about the discussion with the Prophet (SAW) in support of fatwas etc??? I am interpreting it as the opposite (apologies).

    My greatest love for Islam stems from the simplicity of its practice. It is all between you and your Creator without intermediaries.

    CAN EITHER OF YOU EXPOUND IN GENERAL TERMS ON THE ROLE OF THE FIQH COUNCIL IN NA. And how do we reconcile between them and other fatwas as we are constantly being beaten on the head with these opposing views???

    Strictly speaking for myself, I know The Good Lord is probably not going to be kind to me because in all my life I have never felt any burning desire or need to look beyond Him and the Quran and the Prophet. Frankly, I am naively shocked as I learn about the number of sects in Islam. Didnt our Prophet predict that also. Ah well, cant win them all. Goodnight.

    Reply

  11. Posted by Anonymous X on March 12, 2013 at 11:45 pm

    salams.

    You answered your own question, brother. You ask ‘Why can’t we read the sources for ourselves?’ and then admit to your own ‘very limited knowledge’. That’s why. We can read, but our limited knowledge is superficial and we would not get the whole, deeper meaning.

    As for Ata Turk, he may’ve saved some relics from the Ottoman empire, but his secular rule effectively removed Islam from the equation.

    You will need to ask the Trustees about the Fiqh Council of North America. They seem to be/have been (loosely) affiliated with ISNA. Their website (http://www.fiqhcouncil.org/) has tabs that suggest they give fatwas and have some means of contact, but those tabs do not work. Makes one wonder how anyone is supposed to get in contact with them to get an answer. Most of the people listed as members of the Council are former ISNA speakers. Scholars, but not necessarily muftis. (Sort of like ‘smart guys but not lawyers’.)

    Reply

    • God Bless you Brother X,

      Thanks for your comments. Limited knowledge was my way of saying that we should never claim to know it all and always be humble. All knowledge is with Allah. Even the Prophet (PBUH) would claim that his knowledge was limited to what was revealed to him etc etc. Point was that I have never heard or read that the Prophet (PBUH) was ever dogmatic in his views. He was always reasonable and pragmatic and we should follow his footsteps as best we can. Your point is well taken, that they(Imams) are more learned than us. However as to the them being the exclusive interpreters of Islam, I have a hard time.

      Huge Islamic revival in Turkey as you know, and this without people whipping you to force you into mosques. There is no basis for compulsion in Islam. Same guidance and same path from Ibrahim Hanifa (PBUH) on down. Each one of us is answerable for our own good or bad deeds, even if it be the size of an atom. Allah knows what is in the breasts of men.

      Forgive me but I cant help making the comment: “God save us from the lawyers”. Pretty universal over the centuries. 🙂

      Any way it has been a pleasure having this delightful interaction with you. May Allah shower his blessings on you and yours. I hope to meet you in person, Inshallah, one of these days under less trying circumstances.

      Reply

  12. Posted by Anonymous on March 13, 2013 at 12:37 am

    Here we go. Stop praising the 5 Million plan and prepare argument to support another plan that will cost 3.2 millions. The president has brought up another plan after “virtual” communication with community. Can anyone mention that after March 02 meeting, when and where he communicated with community to know that community wants a plan of 3.2 millions.

    May Allah give hadia to those, who just for sake of their personal agenda are destroying community.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on March 13, 2013 at 9:16 am

      Salam. What’s wrong with looking at a plan that will only cost $3.2 million? It’s the best suggestion I have heard so far. It’s time to put this expansion behind us and move on to other things. We’ll be bogged down for decades with Plan E. the executive committee is doing an excellent job of trying to bring the community together. Stubbornness is bringing it a part.

      Reply

      • ASA Brother/Sister Anonymous ??

        Like Anonymous X ( A wonderful, well read, and reasoned voice) you might want to add a letter to your pseudonym too.

        Anyway nothing wrong with looking at the 3.2M plan. I think we should look at as many plans as possible. I am working on a 2.32M and a 1.91M plan with an architect friend from MSU. I would like the community to look at that also. Why not?? Surplus to be donated to help the brothers and sisters in Syria and other unfortunate places.

        THE BOT SEEMED TO BE SEEKING RECONCILIATION, UNLESS I READ THEIR MESSAGE WRONG, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE COMES UP WITH A PLAN THAT IS NOT EVEN “CONCEPTUAL.”

        I THINK IF THE BOT IS WILLING TO RELENT ON THE CAP THEN THE BOD AND EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE IS DUTY BOUND TO WORK WITH THEM OR THEY RISK BEING CAST AS THE STUBBORN DESTROYERS OF THE COMMUNITY FOR THEIR OWN…………..

        ‘WHAT WOULD THE PROPHET (PBUH) DO”. I think he would have gladly given up a thousand Cordobas in exchange of keeping his Ummah together. What do you think?? Or do you think he would have encouraged us to tear each other down and speak ill of each other, under the guise of reform and …….

        Getting interesting/sadder by the minute!!!!!

    • Allah’s Blessing on you and the community brother/sister Anonymous.

      Thanks for saying what needed to be said. The personal agenda is what is killing us all. Teams of relatives, hurt egos, disrespectful behavior, some real some perceived. You are so right!!!!!!! It is the elephant in the room; people saying one thing while meaning and doing the other. I wonder what the Quran says about that.

      IN DEFENSE OF THE BOD:

      THEY ARE TRYING TO DO THE BEST AS THEY SEE FIT AND THAT IS THERE JOB AND WE SHOULD HELP THEM AS LONG AS THE DONT, UNKNOWINGLY AND UNINTENTIONALLY, TEAR THIS COMMUNITY APART, and STAY TRUE TO THE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES OF THE IAGD. “Road to H…..is paved with good intentions.” DONT FORGET THERE IS A LARGE SECTION OF THE COMMUNITY THAT IS JUST WAKING UP TO WHAT IS GOING ON AND IS NOT THRILLED BY THE BOD OR THE BOT.

      IN DEFENSE OF THE BOT:

      THEY ARE NOT, I REPEAT NOT JUST ADVISORS. THEY ARE TRUSTEES (READ GUARDIANS), ANY ORGANIZATION’S TRUSTEES ARE THERE SO THAT BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND OTHER OPERATIONAL LEADERS DONT DESTROY THE INTENTS OF THE CHARTER AND INTENTS OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE INSTITUTION. THEY PROVIDE LONG TERM STABILITY IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE SHORT TERM BOARD OF DIRECTORS WITH THEIR VOLATILITY COME AND GO (BLUE CHIPS VS SMALL CAP….sorry couldn’t resist 🙂 )

      LETS ALL STOP INSULTING AND DISPARAGING BOTH THESE GROUP AND AS ANOTHER MEMBER SAID SPINNING STUFF TO OUR OWN ENDS TILL WE ALL DROP. No pun intended.

      I have my own plan. I will be revealing that very soon; maybe at the next dinner or in response to another post.

      Dear Brother/Sister, how about adding a letter to your pseudonym (X is taken) so we can all follow the threads of conversations from the anonymous brothers/sisters. Just a thought.

      Reply

  13. Posted by Mansoor Ahmad on March 13, 2013 at 11:41 am

    ASAK. Our original approved plan can be done in that amount. In that plan the main floor can be remodeled with new bath rooms and relocation of the Imam’s office. The second floor with a mezzanine would be built with a separate entrance for the sisters. Even the architect they brought in from Houston a couple of years ago came up with a similar plan. I was in the meeting when he made his presentation he came up with that plan that could be done in this amount. But obviously they didn’t like it and wanted to build a much larger plan that they have.

    Don’t forget at the community meeting lot of people filled up the survey and made comments. That is your source of communication with the community. There is nothing wrong with exploring different plans and ideas and the Executive Committee is doing exactly that. There is nothing wrong with looking at different options and providing those options to the community so the community can decide which plan to be built. This is what you call process which was not followed before and this is how you engage, involve and include the community. This is one way to bring the community together also. So far it did not cost IAGD anything.

    May Allah guide us all, Ameen.

    Reply

    • God Bless you Brother Mansoor.

      Thank you for your reasoned and thoughtful comments. A+. Small point: MANY AT THE COMMUNITY MEETING REFUSED TO FILL OUT FORM/SURVEY BECAUSE IT WAS SEEN AS PREEMPTIVE AND DIVISIVE AND CERTAINLY WITHOUT ANY CONTROLS. I PERSONALLY SAW ONE BROTHER FILLING OUT MORE THAN ONE FORM . I WOULD NOT HANG MY HAT ON THIS ONE!!!!!

      Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on March 14, 2013 at 12:56 pm

      Mansoor

      were survey reached to all members ? Where are results of survey? I could not find on IAGD website? Can you see any single word in email of president where he has referred survey results? should we make the survey as base of any conclusion if less than, say 35%, have submitted?

      Reply

  14. Posted by Tabassum on March 13, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    ASAK:
    Dear ALL.
    I wish we really follow and practice what we preach to others (myself included).It appears from recent emails from BOT and others that no body is working on a compromise and coming to an common understanding.

    We are all trying to spin their our already stated positions. The “take away” from the community meeting was BOT and BOD discuss to come to an agreement. I dont see that happening as yet.

    Who is going to this “BELL THE CAT” of bringing the community together. I think this the challange we all need to address if we want to move forward soon. What is the best way for this?

    Reply

  15. Posted by Mohammad on March 13, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    Assalamu Alaikum. Br. Tabassum, we should be putting pressure on the BOT. They are the ones insisting on one plan plan e. BOD is trying to come up with other plans to meet our needs. Br. Usman Master said at the community meeting that the BOT was ready to talk tithe BOD. A week later, the BOT is sending out very mean spirited enews condemning the people that are trying to resolve this. What type of Islamic behavior is this? What type of effort on the part of BOT is this to come to an acceptable compromise? Looks like BOT does not want to compromise. It is their way or the highway.

    Reply

  16. Posted by Mansoor Ahmad on March 13, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    ASAK. Brs. The information I got from my source that IAGD President went to the Chairman of the BOT’s house and talk to him for two and a half hours and also met with the member of the BOT Usman Master for two hours at his house. What is the out come, you can read the unofficial E-Mail of the Sec. of BOT.

    May Allah guide us all, Ameen.

    Mansoor

    Reply

  17. Posted by Tabassum on March 13, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    ASAK All. I agree.
    Lets all of us getting these emails, start responding back urging our elders (BOT) to come to compromise with the BOD instead of a confrontation leading to further division.

    Reply

  18. Posted by Choudry on March 13, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    I agree with br Tabassum. BOT should show that they really want the unity of community . So far they haven’t moved an inch whereas the BOD are doing their best to come up with a solution . The BOT have mentioned in their mails that they respected all school of thoughts but in this situation ( when every sensitive heart is feeling the severity of the situation ) they respect none because all four school of thoughts are against their decision( changing a designated prayer area where the congregations have held for more than 25 years ,now).
    They are following a body (FCNA) which doesn’t even have a single scholar who is capable of giving religious verdict or decision( people should search that what are the requirements of a scholar who can give a religious decree).
    Moulana Moudoodi was a reknowned scholar and his Tafseer of Quran is marvelous , but it is not considered authentic enough to be taught in religious schools because he didn’t fulfill the pre-requisites .
    Here the body ,the BOT is referring to is so ……that they have a generic opinion and when you ask them( if you get hold of them) that you want to change your masjid into something else they will forward you the same text ,without inquiring about the pertinent delicacies .
    Islamic jurisprudence is a whole subject . Our nominal knowledge and ignorance of ARABIC is the greatest handicap . Hazrat Omar (R) once said that if you want to understand Quran you should learn the poetry of BADDUS( nomads of Arabia). How can a person who doesn’t know ARABIC can give religious decree because it needs to be extracted from QURAN and HADEES.
    Why the scholars of the world have no importance in the eyes of BOT and a group smart people have given more weight?
    Since now they know how to communicate ,they should answer the questions from the community.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on March 14, 2013 at 2:47 pm

      Br. Choudry, Br. Tabsum & Br. Butt

      I appreciate if you can explain what are per-requisites to become scholar. Also explain why Modoodi was not scholar but the person sitting in local masjid of pakistan/india has authority to issue “Fatwa”? In other words a person who became scholar by studying syllabus developed by deoband or Barivi school of thought 100 years back is more authentic than a person who did research himself and covered all literature of different school of thoughts, wrote many research papers, got PhD. So then Prof Tariq Ramdan should not be considered scholar, as he did not go for madrsa for 7 years ( a case similar like Modoudi). It is better for us that IAGD imam better go to Deoband or similar school rather than going to respectable Tariq Ramadan.

      I humbly request that please avoid discussions that are further dividing community. May Allah bless all of us and help us to unite. Ameen

      Reply

      • Posted by Choudhry on March 14, 2013 at 4:25 pm

        Brother ,
        Please have a look at the writing again. No comments on,to whom should we go for FATAWA.Just a comparison that whose opinion is acceptable and whose not. Living in a democratic world must have taught you some simple principles like majority is authority. Majority of AALIMS and majority of community members DON’t WANT THE MASJID TO BE CHANGED INTO ANYTHING.
        Can you deny this ? NO .
        So tell YOUR BOT to stop playing the song of plan E .

      • Posted by Anonymous on March 14, 2013 at 5:48 pm

        What a wonderful way to answer the question? Answer the questions with reasoning rather than affiliating someone to BOT.

  19. Posted by GB member on March 13, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    BOT DIDN’T SAY WHEN AND WHERE THEY ARE GOING TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS OF THE COMMUNITY ?

    Reply

  20. Posted by Another GB member on March 13, 2013 at 5:31 pm

    I would add……. without their ex president because he loves to waste time and snub community members.

    Reply

  21. Posted by Nobody on March 13, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    I have received the email today, sent by BOT .It shows a couple of very interesting things .First of all there is a link that says that if you haven’t received info about their plan E you can send an email .Wow they still don’t need any suggestions .
    Second one is FACTS TO KNOW .Mr Secretary of BOT mentions that they are going to build a school tower for the capacity of 500 kids and in the parenthesis he says that which currently has 86 kids~Wow again he doesn’t count those 350 kids who come to Sunday school every week . He doesn’t think that they are important enough to be considered as a matter of consideration.BABAJI these 350 kids are the chunk of your community on which the future of YOUR MASJID depends . They are going to reap what you are sowing for them and didn’t even give a damn to them .SHABASHAY!

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on March 14, 2013 at 3:58 pm

      Those of us who really wants K-12 school, apart from sunday school, should join hands together and raise at least 500,000 USDs. After all we claim we are more than 50% of community.
      Why we want money of donors given for Masjid to be utilized for school, especially when donors want that money specifically to be spent on Masjid. The president in last meeting noted down this suggestion but still there is no separate account for school. If one Million Dollar is raised , we can easily start school too. At that time, we will see how BOD or BOT don’t allow us to go for school. we (as donor of school) can even bring them to court that they collected money specifically for school and now they are using it for Masjid.

      Though i personally don’t think that donating for school has less reward compared to Masjid, but those of us who raised in pakistan/India has notion that it has more reward to donate for Masjid.

      Atleast those who donated or raised funds for Masjid are better than us who all the time writing blogs to further raise the differences.

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on March 14, 2013 at 9:56 pm

        ASA. WHAT AN EXTREMELY ENLGHTENED TRAIN OF THOUGHT. Very reassuring that some independent thinking is still possible. I will gladly donate to the school if it is a independent project and not wrapped around the masjid. God Bless u.

      • Posted by Anonymous on March 14, 2013 at 11:41 pm

        Nice idea indeed. But who can be right person that can lead such a project. I suggest that respectable member of BOD like Imran and usman master from BOT should come forward for such a cause. Inshallah community will be having both school and Masjid.
        If our intentions are pure, Allah will help us. we should bear in mind that in 80s there were few families and look at what they had done. Now instead of creating differences, if we work altogether, we can make both school and Masjid. We should also keep in mind that whenever new muslim come, he tries to find home where he can find good masjid. After all, thirsty person goes near well, not the well goes towards thirsty person.

  22. Posted by Mansoor Ahmad on March 13, 2013 at 6:23 pm

    ASAK. Br. Chaudry, BOT are not even following Fiqh Counsel of North America (FCNA). They are just giving the reference of an E-mail they received from one member of the counsel who is a friend of the chairman of the BOT. They have the fatwa from FCNA which prohibits converting our prayer hall into anything. IAGD President Fasahat Hamzavi read the fatwa from FCNA at the community meeting to answer one of the sister’s question regarding this issue.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on March 14, 2013 at 6:15 pm

      I feel sorry if a some scholar gave some fatwa to please his friend without thinking about day of judgement. But Br. Mansoor if this is allegation, ……………
      I sincerely pray that may Allah show Chairman of IAGD, or the scholar , or you the true path or Hadiath, whoever is wrong. Ameen.
      I sincerely hope that before making such a bold statement, you also have definitely thought many times about day of judgement.

      Reply

  23. Dear All:

    MAY ALLAH INTERVENE AND GIVE PEACE TO OUR HEARTS. CONVERSATION SUDDENLY TOOK A LEFT TURN. BROTHER TABASSUM YOU ASK “WHO WILL BELL THE CAT.” WHO ELSE OTHER THAN YOU AND I WITH ALLAHS HELP. HAS TO START SOMEWHERE.

    IN SPITE OF THE, HOPEFULLY TEMPORARY, RISE IN TEMPERATURE ABOVE, MANY PEOPLE SEEM TO BE FINDING THERE VOICE OF REASON AGAIN. INSHALLAH THE “CAT WILL BE BELLED” ESPECIALLY IF WE TRUST IN ALLAH AND TRY TO STOP BEING MICE.

    DID I MISS SOMETHING. DIDNT THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES SHOW WILLINGNESS TO RECONSIDER THE CAP??

    DID I HEAR BROTHER MANSOOR SHOW SOME INTEREST IN AND A WILLINGNESS TO LOOK AT SOME MODIFICATION OF THE APPROVED PLAN. I KNOW OF ONLY ONE OFFICIALLY APPROVED PLAN, REGARDLESS OF OUR SECOND THOUGHTS.

    DID I JUST READ A FLURRY OF MESSAGES TALKING ABOUT COMING TOGETHER AND THEN START TEARING EACH OTHER APART IN THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE.

    LETS KEEP K-12 SEPARATE FROM SUNDAY SCHOOL. SUNDAY SCHOOL HAS A LOT OF SUPPORT (EVEN FROM ME, WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN CREATING SECOND CLASS AMERICAN MUSLIMS IN PAROCHIAL K-12 SCHOOLS). K-12 IF CRITICAL SHOULD BE A SEPARATE ENDEAVOR FOR WHICH THERE SHOULD BE SEPARATE EFFORTS. IT MUST NOT BE RIDER ON THE IAGD. AS A SIDE IF WE START COMING TOGETHER MAY BE ALL SIDES CAN RELENT A BIT, EVEN I ON THIS ISSUE.

    WELL ITS BEEN A LONG NIGHT FOLKS. IF ALLAH SENDS YOU ASTRAY IS THERE ANYONE THAT CAN GUIDE YOU?????????????

    Reply

  24. ASA Brother/Sister Anonymous ??

    Like Anonymous X ( A wonderful, well read, and reasoned voice) you might want to add a letter to your pseudonym too.

    Anyway nothing wrong with looking at the 3.2M plan. I think we should look at as many plans as possible. I am working on a 2.32M and a 1.91M plan with an architect friend from MSU. I would like the community to look at that also. Why not?? Surplus to be donated to help the brothers and sisters in Syria and other unfortunate places.

    THE BOT SEEMED TO BE SEEKING RECONCILIATION, UNLESS I READ THEIR MESSAGE WRONG, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE COMES UP WITH A PLAN THAT IS NOT EVEN “CONCEPTUAL.”

    I THINK IF THE BOT IS WILLING TO RELENT ON THE CAP THEN THE BOD AND EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE IS DUTY BOUND TO WORK WITH THEM OR THEY RISK BEING CAST AS THE STUBBORN DESTROYERS OF THE COMMUNITY FOR THEIR OWN…………..

    ‘WHAT WOULD THE PROPHET (PBUH) DO”. I think he would have gladly given up a thousand Cordobas in exchange of keeping his Ummah together. What do you think?? Or do you think he would have encouraged us to tear each other down and speak ill of each other, under the guise of reform and …….

    Getting interesting/sadder by the minute!!!!!

    Reply

  25. God Bless you Brother Mansoor.

    Thank you for your reasoned and thoughtful comments. A+. Small point: MANY AT THE COMMUNITY MEETING REFUSED TO FILL OUT FORM/SURVEY BECAUSE IT WAS SEEN AS PREEMPTIVE AND DIVISIVE AND CERTAINLY WITHOUT ANY CONTROLS. I PERSONALLY SAW ONE BROTHER FILLING OUT MORE THAN ONE FORM . I WOULD NOT HANG MY HAT ON THIS ONE!!!!!

    Reply

  26. Allah’s Blessing on you and the community brother/sister Anonymous.

    Thanks for saying what needed to be said. The personal agenda is what is killing us all. Teams of relatives, hurt egos, disrespectful behavior, some real some perceived. You are so right!!!!!!! It is the elephant in the room; people saying one thing while meaning and doing the other. I wonder what the Quran says about that.

    IN DEFENSE OF THE BOD:

    THEY ARE TRYING TO DO THE BEST AS THEY SEE FIT AND THAT IS THERE JOB AND WE SHOULD HELP THEM AS LONG AS THE DONT, UNKNOWINGLY AND UNINTENTIONALLY, TEAR THIS COMMUNITY APART, and STAY TRUE TO THE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES OF THE IAGD. “Road to H…..is paved with good intentions.” DONT FORGET THERE IS A LARGE SECTION OF THE COMMUNITY THAT IS JUST WAKING UP TO WHAT IS GOING ON AND IS NOT THRILLED BY THE BOD OR THE BOT.

    IN DEFENSE OF THE BOT:

    THEY ARE NOT, I REPEAT NOT JUST ADVISORS. THEY ARE TRUSTEES (READ GUARDIANS), ANY ORGANIZATION’S TRUSTEES ARE THERE SO THAT BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND OTHER OPERATIONAL LEADERS DONT DESTROY THE INTENTS OF THE CHARTER AND INTENTS OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE INSTITUTION. THEY PROVIDE LONG TERM STABILITY IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE SHORT TERM BOARD OF DIRECTORS WITH THEIR VOLATILITY COME AND GO (BLUE CHIPS VS SMALL CAP….sorry couldn’t resist )

    LETS ALL STOP INSULTING AND DISPARAGING BOTH THESE GROUP AND AS ANOTHER MEMBER SAID SPINNING STUFF TO OUR OWN ENDS TILL WE ALL DROP. No pun intended.

    I have my own plan. I will be revealing that very soon; maybe at the next dinner or in response to another post.

    Dear Brother/Sister, how about adding a letter to your pseudonym (X is taken) so we can all follow the threads of conversations from the anonymous brothers/sisters. Just a thought.

    Reply

  27. Dear Brother Mansoor,

    I apologize for contradicting but I heard our beloved President of the BOD, Dr. Hamzavi, say that the FCNA said it was okay to move the mosque provided three conditions were met. If I misheard him, I am sorry for bringing this up.

    ABOVE ALL I AM STILL WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO GUIDE ME TO AN AYAH OR EVEN A HADITH THAT SAYS A MOSQUE CANNOT BE MOVED EVEN IF WE WERE BUILDING A BIGGER AND BETTER ONE. IS IT NOT TRUE THAT ALLAH WILL JUDGE US ON OUR INTENTIONS. IF NOT DO WE HAVE THE COURAGE AND WILL TO GET BACK TO OUR ROOTS/ORIGINAL TEACHINGS.

    SCHOLARS, MUFTIS, IMAMS, COUNCILS………WHAT WOULD THE PROPHET (PBUH) SAY?????????????

    Best regards, with all my prayers.

    Reply

  28. Posted by Choudhry on March 14, 2013 at 5:49 pm

    Br Abdullah ,
    Your name means slave of Allah means a person who submits himself completely to the word of Allah & Rasul ullah( SAW).Your DEEN is complete and has given you some principles to look for the solution. The Quran says أطيعوا الله و أطيعوا الرسول means obey Allah and obey the Rasool. The Rasool (SAW) teaches you that don’t go near the boundaries or you will get astray. If there is something that is not clearly mention in Quran or HADEES stay away from it.later on matters occurred ,due to their importance people started going to learned scholars . It was established with the evolution of FIQH that without knowing ARABIC one should not pass a religious Fatwa.
    Historical fact is that there are 4 main religious school of thoughts based on minor differences.you are free to observe any or all ,but right now all of them have the same verdict . What is the big deal . Severity of matter is this that if you build that gigantic structure of mosque and as time passes by due to increase in community the number of mosques are increasing and people prefer to go to ones that are near their houses. Who is going to run the building with huge utility charges. And in the long run if you have to minimize it what is going to happen to that structure .Are you going to sell it to a church or what?

    The larger the plan heavier will be the utility bills .FOUNDING FATHERS and their next generation doesn’t live near the masjid so you don’t see them very often. These oldies haven’t been to the YOUTH FOUNTAIN so who will be responsible for the running of structure. They have not presented anything yet ( as AUQAAF in Pakistan does that they have businesses to pay for the wear and tear of the masjid) that they have planned for the masjid so that the structure should be manged smoothlessly.

    Reply

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